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From a recent discussion at pamho:

…I was also under the impression that it was understood that once taking sannyasa one was allowed to make disciples.

I doubt there is any correlation to taking sannyasa and being guru. If anything, taking sannyasa would be a bar to being guru.

Traditionally gurus were householders. That is why one of the seven mothers is the wife of the guru:

“According to scriptures also, there are seven mothers: (1) the real mother,
(2) the wife of the spiritual master, (3) the wife of a brahmana, (4) the wife of the king, (5) the cow, (6) the nurse, and (7) the earth.”

SB 1.11.28

It isn’t hard to make a case that ISKCON generally has lacked the wives of the gurus and has suffered because of it.

More on the householder guru tradition:

” ‘A person may be a brahmana, a sannyasi, a sudra or whatever, but if he is well conversant in the science of Krsna, he can become a guru.’ (Cc. Madhya 8.128) This statement is supported by Sri Madhavendra Puri. According to the pancaratra injunction, only a householder brahmana can initiate. Others cannot.”

Madhya 4.111

Srila Prabhupada then goes on to explain in the same purport that vaisnavas aren’t limited by this:

“This indicates that the Lord understood the weakness of society in its maintaining that only a grhastha-brahmana should be a spiritual master. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu indicated that it does not matter whether the spiritual master is a grhastha (householder), a sannyasi or even a sudra. A spiritual master simply must be conversant in the essence of the sastra; he must understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. ”

Madhya 4.111

So although we have a tradition of householder gurus, the loophole is there for sannyasis to become gurus.

How is it determined who can be guru?:

“Who can become guru? Generally a brahmana, a sannyasi, that is, they are forced. Brahmana is the guru of other varnas, and sannyasi is the guru for all varnasrama. This is… But Caitanya Mahaprabhu says that is social system. If there is a brahmana, if there is a sannyasi, one should accept, give preference to him, to accept guru. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu says, “That is not the criterion. One must be well expert, experienced, well aware of the science of Krsna. He shall be guru.” Not that particularly because one is born in a brahmana family or one has taken sannyasa, he is immediately by the dress, or by birth, one can become guru. No.

Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.8 — Vrndavana, October 30, 1976

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Interesting perspective, indicating the traditional prominence of the grihasta guru.

Our tradition in ISKCON seems to be the opposite, almost total prominence of sannyasa gurus. Why? It seems traditionaly the grihastas were predominantly the gurus and that the sannyasis went to the forest, exemplifying total renunciation, including not having disciples.

A ban on grihasta gurus is not there in ISKCON, so why the almost total absence of grihasta gurus?

Is it because there are hardly any qualified grihasta gurus? Or is it that there are many qualified grihasta gurus but inadvertently they are not encouraged?

ISKCON is a BIG and slowly growing worldwide organisation with so many unsung immensely qualified grihasta devotees who preach and can only recommend their recruits to those on the guru list or to their respective gurus. Perhaps if those preachers, particularly exemplary grihastas, were assertively encouraged to be ‘initiating’ guru for their recruits it can only expand the preaching and relieve those gurus who struggle with too many disciples.

Of course this raises many subsequent issues….

And what about women initiating? We have many 50 yrs plus very advanced female Vaisnavis who could be initiating and positively carrying a big chunk of the preaching load. Srila Prabhupada did say that he wanted his ’sons and daughters’ to initiate. Will our qualified women in ISKCON ever be given the ‘no objection’ light for initiating?

Respectfully

ys

ad

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I think it would be nice if grhasthas on this conference explain why they don’t initiate disciples. Here are a few of my guesses.

It wouldn’t fit their lifestyle, i. e. with current family responsibilities they couldn’t give the needed time to that service and still be able to support their families.

Although qualified, due to family responsibilities, much of their time is engaged with work to support their families and thus they don’t feel properly situated spiritually to do the job (their time to hear and chant is compromised and thus feel they are not in the optimal position to be leading a group of disciples in krsna consciousness).

Their wife considers if my husband is a guru, he’ll have less time for the family (and he already hardly is around) or the wife thinks I’ll have to be a kind of guru to his disciples and I don’t want to do that or I don’t feel qualified to do that, or his wife can’t deal with the fact that all these disciples will be treating her husband as a guru when she knows well that although he’s a nice devotee, he’s certainly not as great as those disciples are making him out to be.

The role, duty and profile of the diksa guru in Iskcon is somewhat ambiguous and they are waiting for it to become more clear, and perhaps have the playing field leveled before they initiate (leveled between initiating and non

initiating gurus).

Everyone likes you until you become a guru. At that point you automatically inherent numerous enemies who don’t even know you. Also, the grhastha might be currently doing things which everyone sees as fine or even appreciates until he or she takes on disciples. Then it’s, “Why is so and so doing that? That’s bogus for a guru to do that.”

One feels the qualifications to be a diksa guru are very high and doesn’t feel qualified for the job even though one’s godbrothers feel he or she is qualified.

One doesn’t agree with the role of diksa guru in Iskcon, i. e. one doesn’t agree with the profile that many diksa gurus are allowed to have, or the way they are treated special in relation to other godbrothers and sisters, or the way they may have special influence, privledges, etc. and thus one doesn’t want

to take part in that system because one would become a part of something they don’t believe is proper (of course, they could change that by becoming a part of it, but they don’t think that way).

One may feel they are better suited to be a siksa guru, or simply are more comfortable in that position.

It’s also apparent that men are more inclined to this service than woman. Perhaps that’s a function of the nature of women, or perhaps that’s a statement

on the state of Iskcon in it’s unspoken attitudes towards women. Or perhaps it’s both. And there are probably other factors that influence women’s decision not to initiate.

One has enough service and responsibility that taking on disciples is not possible.

One has been dealing with some big anarthas over the past years and although one’s sadhana and service are going on, one feels hypocritical to take disciples.

One may feel spiritually qualified to do the job, but materially unable to do it well, either due to a lack of understanding of how to deal with a guru disciple relationship, or simply a lack of interest or proclivity for such service.

Many devotees who do not want to initiate for these and other reasons are satisfied to be actively engaged in preaching Krsna consciousness according to

their time and abilities, and some would even be willing take on the role of siksa guru (although it doesn’t seem there is such a thing as an official role of siksa guru in Iskcon unless a preacher takes it on himself to create one).

Md

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These are all very nice observations and I have yet to read all of them, but I have one answer. Most Prabhupada disciples grew up as “karmis” and only after 30 years of training and realization think ourselves capable of imparting those realizations and guidance on others. So their entire grhastha span is spent learning what should have been learnt (LOL) in childhood. Those who were more “detached”, took a giant leap to sanyassa at a relatively young age—for the benefit of all mankind and Srila Prabhupada’s movement. So the very first years of the “Glorious Vedic Revolution” as Srila Acharyadeva humorously refers to it, is a patchwork and Rube Goldberg-type machine piloted by 20-somethings doing the most important work in the history of mankind.

Perhaps the “children of devotees,” who are familiar with Vedic culture from an early age, are more “hard-wired” and trained in spiritual science than us and will not take so long in life to become gurus. Thus, perhaps grhastha gurus will become more commonplace and more sanyassas will retire to the forest.

Srila Prabhupada’s movement is like Krishna can take two cells in the womb and combine them, then form a lump of cells, an embryo and in only 9 months produce a wonderfully complex baby. But it often takes another 20 years before that small human can be fully self-sufficient. And once there were dozens, thousands, then millions of similar human copies made over time, every human did not need to start at square one, they benefitted from all that preceded them. ISKCON is like the very first human—that was a REAL challenge. Subsequent Vaisnavas should similarly benefit and get a head start most Prabhupada disciples didn’t have.

TM
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I resemble that.

I have asked more that a few of my grhastha god brothers to take up initiating. They have all declined. Recentely Vaisesikha Prabhu has volunteered.

KS

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Good news about Vaisesikha Prabhu. I have also asked Godbrothers to share the burden without much success.

Ys TS